Executive Committee Meeting Minutes
for 13-14 September 2011

version 0.1: November 21, 2011

Date

September 13-14 , 2011

Location

Goldman Sachs, Jersey City, NJ

Agenda

Attendance: Tuesday September 13

PMO
  • Patrick Curran, Heather Vancura, Harold Ogle
Oracle
  • Mark Reinhold, Linda DeMichiel
ME EC
SE/EE EC
  • Stefano Andreani – present
  • Aplix – John Rizzo – present
  • AT&T – Roger Mahler – present
  • CableLabs – Jon Courtney – present
  • IBM – Mark Rogalski – present
  • Nokia – Erkki Rysa – present
  • Oracle – Calinel Pasteanu, Roger Riggs – present
  • RIM Chris Wood – present
  • Samsung – not present
  • Sean Sheedy – present
  • Siemens Christoph Kuhmuench – present
  • SK Telecom – not present
  • T-Mobile Radomír Věncek – present
  • Alex Terrazas – not present
  • TOTVS – Rob Glidden – present
  • Vodafone Edin Bektesevic – present

Total attendance: 13

  • Credit Suisse – Victor Grazi – present
  • Eclipse – Mike Milinkovich – present
  • Ericsson – Magnus Lönnroth – present
  • Fujitsu – Mike DeNicola – present
  • Goldman Sachs – John Weir – present
  • Google – Josh Bloch – present
  • HP – Scott Jameson – present
  • IBM – Steve Wolfe – present
  • Intel – Steven Chin – present
  • Werner Keil – present
  • London Java Community – Ben Evans – present
  • Oracle – Don Deutsch, Eduardo Gutentag – present
  • RedHat – John Graham – present
  • SAP – not present
  • SouJava – Bruno Souza – present
  • VMWare – not present

Total attendance: 14

Since 75% of the ME EC was present, that EC was quorate for this meeting
Since 75% of the SE/EE EC was present, that EC was quorate for this meeting

Attendance: Wednesday September 14

PMO
  • Patrick Curran, Heather Vancura
ME EC
SE/EE EC
  • Stefano Andreani – present
  • Aplix – John Rizzo – present
  • AT&T – Roger Mahler – present
  • CableLabs – not present
  • IBM – Mark Rogalski – present
  • Nokia – Erkki Rysa – present
  • Oracle – Calinel Pasteanu – present
  • RIM Chris Wood – present
  • Samsung – not present
  • Sean Sheedy – present
  • Siemens Christoph Kuhmuench – present
  • SK Telecom – not present
  • T-Mobile Radomír Věncek – present
  • Alex Terrazas – not present
  • TOTVS – Rob Glidden – present
  • Vodafone Edin Bektesevic – present

Total attendance: 12

  • Credit Suisse – Victor Grazi – present
  • Eclipse – Mike Milinkovich – present
  • Ericsson – Magnus Lönnroth – present
  • Fujitsu – Mike DeNicola – present
  • Goldman Sachs – John Weir – present
  • Google – Josh Bloch – present
  • HP – Scott Jameson – present
  • IBM – Steve Wolfe – present
  • Intel – Steven Chin – present
  • Werner Keil – present
  • London Java Community – Ben Evans – present
  • Oracle – Don Deutsch, Eduardo Gutentag – present
  • RedHat – John Graham – present
  • SAP – not present
  • SouJava – Bruno Souza – present
  • VMWare – not present

Total attendance: 14

Since 75% of the ME EC was present, that EC was quorate for this meeting
Since 75% of the SE/EE EC was present, that EC was quorate for this meeting

Minutes

Personnel changes

Patrick reported personnel changes (see the PMO presentation.)

EC stats

Patrick reviewed the EC stats presentation.

PMO implementation of JSR 348

Harold Ogle presented the PMOs plans for implementing JSR 348. It was suggested that the EC stats provided at each meeting be supplemented with information specifying which EC members currently have voting rights and that this information also be provided on the public EC membership page. EC members confirmed that public EC meetings would not be confined to JCP members.

JavaOne update

Heather VanCura provided an update on the PMO's plans for JavaOne (see the PMO presentation for details.)

Java ME platform update

Roger Riggs gave a presentation outlining Oracle's plans for the Java ME platform. He noted that Oracle and Aplix were working to resolve MIDP licensing-fragmentation issues. Sean Sheedy asked what the focus of these chages was. Roger responded "feature phones." Jon Courtney noted that there was no mention of CDC. Roger stated that he had no update on that topic. Jon Courtney asked whether there were plans for synchronizing CDC and CLDC. Roger responded that a modular Java SE could replace CDC. Jon noted that even a modular Java SE might be too large for some CLDC applications. Calinel reiterated that the focus was on CDC: the intent was to define and update the base components, the VM and the language, and then to work on a stack of JSRs built on top of this. He noted that set-top box standards are set outside of the JCP and that additional effort would be needed to define a stack for that environment (neither CDC nor a modular Java SE would be suitable.) Jon responded that a new "base" should be created for the TV space. Calinel asked for requirements. Jon responded that he had provided his input at the Seoul meeting.

Edin Bektesevic asked for an explanation of ESA (referenced on slide 4.) Roger explained that this would attempt to support the carrier business and their utilities "end to end." He also noted that there are many embedded devices in vertical markets such as healthcare.

Sean Sheedy asked whether there were any plans to modularize MIDP. Roger responded "maybe." Sean stated that when the two ECs are merged it would be "game over" for Java ME.

John Rizzo cautioned against trying to solve all problems. Do not over-reach.

John Weir asked how they planned to handle credentials and security - these are complex issues. Ben Evans agreed, noting that there are many existing models to choose from, and noted that the granularity of permissions must be considered. Roger responded that they can take advantage of the SIM-card for security. Calinel reminded EC members that JSR 177 deals with security.

Rob Glidden asked how this would affect the TV business and the GINGA specifications. Roger responded that he didn't have enough insight into the business relationships to be able to say who from that market was on-board.

Magnus Lönnroth suggested that a single base would be beneficial - the number of "platforms" or "stacks" should be reduced. Roger responded that it is very difficult to create a single base that can handle the very low-end devices and that they were doing their best to simplify things. Ben pointed out that lambda expressions will require considerable overhead. Roger agreed, and also noted that "invoke dynamic" will probably also be excluded.

Mark Rogalski asked whether this work would be licensed differently from the way Java ME is currently licensed. Roger responded that he didn't expect significant changes, and that all license terms would be disclosed as required. Mark asked whether people would be required to migrate to these new versions of Java ME. Roger said he didn't think so, but pointed out that he is not responsible for making business decisions.

John Rizzo argued that CLDC 1.1.1 must continue to be offered.

Java SE platform update

Mark Reinhold made a presentation outlining Oracle's plans for the Java SE platform. In response to a question about the syntax for lambda expressions he responded that it would be similar to C# and Scala. Werner Keil noted that the use of the term "native" in discussions of the module system could potentially be confused with JNI. Victor Grazi asked about the relationship between Project Jigsaw and OSGI. Mark responded that Jigsaw would not be an implementation of OSGI but that there would be a migration path from Jigsaw to OSGI, and that it must be possible to run an OSGI container on top of Jigsaw. Sean Sheedy asked for an explanation of the tensions between proponents of OSGI and the Java module system. Mark explained the necessity of making fundamental changes to the base platform in order to support all of the requirements - OSGI cannot do so.

2012 face-to-face dates and locations

EC members discussed locations and dates for face-to-face meetings in 2012. We agreed to meet in Sao Paulo, Brazil on May 16-17, prior to SouJava's annual Just Java conference. SouJava and TOTVS agreed to jointly host this meeting. There were several suggestions for the September f2f meeting: Prague (hosted by T-Mobile,) Stockholm (hosted by Ericsson,) and Ottowa (hosted by Oracle or IBM.) Patrick agreed to initiate a Doodle poll to allow members to specify their preference.

Java EE platform update

Linda DeMichiel gave a presentation outlining Oracle's plans for the Java EE platform. Patrick asked how they were tracking Java SE8. Linda responded that Java EE7 will be completed before SE8. Java EE8 would be built on SE8.

Magnus Lönnroth stated that Ericsson plans to make much of its software deployable "in the cloud" and noted that they embed Oracle databases in each product. He asked whether licenses could be changed to permit this, otherwise they would want to be able to share databases. Linda responded that they intended to make it technically possible to share databases but noted that licensing is out of scope for this JSR.

JSR 348 Expert Group meeting

The EC then convened as the Expert Group for JSR 348. Members spent a considerable amount of time failing to reach consensus on the meaning of the term consensus. All issues raised during this session were incorporated into the Issue Tracker.

Improving end-user participation

Ben Evans made a presentation and led a discussion on how we could increase end-user participation in the JCP. Patrick Curran pointed out that the kind of soft-skills that are necessary for working in standards organizations can be very helpful in career-development. Magnus Lönnroth responded that they have no difficulty in identifying engineers who are interested in participating, but rather they need to be able to justify the work in order to obtain funding. They need to be able to demostrate the ROI. Victor Grazi pointed out that Credit Suisse supports engineers engaging in ToastMasters and Weight Watchers.

Magnus suggested that cross-functional teams involving testers and technical writers would be helpful. Ben agreed, adding that an "evangelist" role would also be a useful addition to an Expert Group. Roger Riggs asked how writers and testers could be persuaded to participate. Patrick argued that no persuasion would be necessary - they would be glad of the opportunity if their management permitted them to participate.

Roger suggested that two separate arguments were needed: one for executive management emphasizing the strategic value to the company of investing in standards and the second for immediate management emphasizing the technical benefits.

Josh Bloch noted that Google had lowered its participation in the JCP in response to the lawsuit between Oracle and Google.

Bruno Souza pointed out that participating in spec development is difficult. Some people want to participate but don't know how. SouJava is helping to educate them. They have a standards mailing list with 200 participants. He also noted that things are particularly difficult for those who lack skills in English. Patrick pointed out that if source-code is available even non-English speakers can participate (everyone speaks Java.) Roger Riggs suggested that translated specs or non-normative documentation would help.

Goldman Sachs: Java in the enterprise

Jon Weir gave a presentation on Goldman Sach's use of Java. Patrick thanked him for the interesting end-user perspective. Magnus suggested that they should present some of this material at JavaOne.

Merging the ECs

EC members discussed how the proposed EC merge might be implemented. After some discussion of whether targets should be set for the proportion of members who are primarily interested in each platform members agreed that non-binding targets would not be particularly helpful. The purpose of the ratification process is to ensure that an appropriate balance is achieved, and members stated their belief that Oracle should not use ratified seats as a reward for business partners. Patrick pointed out that it is sometimes difficult to find suitable candidates to nominate, and suggested that the EC submit their recommendations to Oracle early in the decision-making process.

It was agreed that the number of members should be reduced from 32 to 25, with Oracle giving up one of its ratified seats and IBM holding only one rather than two seats. It was also agreed to keep the same ration of ratified to elected seats (two to one.)

It was suggested the cut in ratified seats be taken all at once (before the 2012 election) but that members holding elected seats might be permitted to serve out their terms.

Members could not agree on whether to switch from a three-year election cycle to a two-year cycle.

During related discussions it was suggested that we might want to hold four rather than three face-to-face meetings each year and that it would be helpful of there was a well-defined algorithm for selecting the dates of f2f meetings. Members discussed whether attendance at f2f meetings should be mandatory without being able to resolve the problem this would cause due to the lack of resources in some member companies. Other suggestions were to hold our public teleconferences during the f2f meetings, and to hold a face to face meeting immediately after the annual elections in order to make it easier for new members to get up to speed.

Adjourn

Patrick thanked Goldman Sachs for hosting, and the meeting adjourned.